tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post7373238827192818317..comments2022-11-03T11:39:13.662-05:00Comments on Andromeda Media Group: Euclideon DreamsWill Burnshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14369186130470176679noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-73897864294682047412013-08-08T07:16:40.967-05:002013-08-08T07:16:40.967-05:00Here's the algorithm: https://docs.google.com/...Here's the algorithm: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0Tw1fnDScRsekJQRHg3LTB3eGM/edit?usp=sharing. If a good programmer were to implement this (e.g., a reader of this blog) then at least we would know what UD is not (should it be slow). In any case, I'm sorting out impl. details.Kaishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11410655330414167477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-90658587574191104722013-08-08T04:12:40.116-05:002013-08-08T04:12:40.116-05:00I'd love to see what you come up with :)Keep m...I'd love to see what you come up with :)Keep me posted (if you would like). You can find me on Google+Will Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14369186130470176679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-40199980699043854832013-08-08T03:55:31.262-05:002013-08-08T03:55:31.262-05:00Thanks (interesting post by the way, you moreover ...Thanks (interesting post by the way, you moreover managed to reveal an Euclideon UD game!). As for 2-D, I think you're correct: the octree is a dimension-reducing device i.e., it's complexity in terms of number of subtrees is as the surface (smaller than the volume except fractal style things) of the object. One has the distinct impression that one will soon reverse engineer their tech. In fact there's a certain algorithm, having UD properties like freedom from *, / or floats, at most one point per pixel, involving object octrees & view 3-D quadtrees, that should be implemented by a good programmer. I'm working on it but summer heat is a problem.Kaishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11410655330414167477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-1502956082783126722013-08-07T18:04:19.242-05:002013-08-07T18:04:19.242-05:00When I say it works more like a 2D engine, what I ...When I say it works more like a 2D engine, what I mean is - the file format itself for the point cloud data is indexed and then correlates to pixel screen space in 2D. The engine only asks up front for the individual point cloud pixels from the models that can correspond to the fixed 2D screen space while preemptively omitting the other 99% of the data through the search algorithm.<br /><br />What you see, then, is the 3D view but it's really a trick of perspective in a 2D space allowing the Euclideon Engine to deal with photo realistic models without the bulk of the data to process.Will Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14369186130470176679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-17102047375440642262013-08-07T09:53:27.723-05:002013-08-07T09:53:27.723-05:00The bottom line is - Euclideon works more like a 2...The bottom line is - Euclideon works more like a 2D engine than a 3D Engine, but because of perspective on a 2D screen, you wouldn't know the difference. That's really the underlying point and secret of what they're doing different.<br /><br />Is it not, in fact, the other way around? Instead of projecting things on the view plane they, instead, work in view space. View space is a quadtree (implying the view pyramid, its quadrant subpyramids etc. down to pyramids corresponding to pixels) while the object space is an octree. The octree is descended in the quadtree, in front-to-back fashion. Occluded octrees (none of their front faces has a subsquare in a free subpyramid: that's perhaps the relevant patent).Kaishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11410655330414167477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-6629781072435797802012-11-15T14:31:53.753-05:002012-11-15T14:31:53.753-05:00Hi there again, here is my precise mathematical gu...Hi there again, here is my precise mathematical guess about how it might work. <br /><br />"Digital materialization, Euclideon and Fractal Image Compression"<br /><br />http://chorasimilarity.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/digital-materialization-euclideon-and-fractal-image-compression/<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-2160923958224471192012-10-14T15:29:04.299-05:002012-10-14T15:29:04.299-05:00If you were to look at it above, you'd likely ...If you were to look at it above, you'd likely see what they are doing that is different. The Euclideon file format comes across as one where the individual points in the point cloud inside the file are indexed like a search engine would index sites. Additional points in between can be reduced or eliminated but replaced with procedural methods to infer more detail based on nearest neighbor points (like the scaling algorithms used in game emulators today). By this method, they can pre-occlude data before opening the file by stating in advance what points exactly it is looking for and telling the system to ignore the other 98% of the file in advance. Will Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14369186130470176679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-50721764899142038572012-10-14T05:50:23.979-05:002012-10-14T05:50:23.979-05:00Wow, now is clear :)
I know there are comercial ...Wow, now is clear :) <br /><br />I know there are comercial reasons for not disclosing the algorithm, but as a "pure math" researcher, I just want to know. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-74390855638272618632012-10-13T17:55:11.076-05:002012-10-13T17:55:11.076-05:00Mass connected processing is where we have a way o...Mass connected processing is where we have a way of processing masses of data at the same time and then applying the small changes to each part at the end. This is likely due to the above mentioned methodology of point cloud search wherein we can search through a bunch of data (processing masses of data) and pulling only the points in view on screen via the 2D viewport and changing only the pixels on screen that are different(applying the small changes to each part at the end). <br /><br />I hope this clears it up a bit :)Will Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14369186130470176679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-43859771664278882742012-10-13T16:14:39.266-05:002012-10-13T16:14:39.266-05:00Hello, can you make sense of this, related to &quo...Hello, can you make sense of this, related to "mass connected processing"? <br /><br />http://chorasimilarity.wordpress.com/2012/10/13/mass-connected-processing/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-85462468876510283942012-09-26T06:04:00.332-05:002012-09-26T06:04:00.332-05:00Adoption will be very very quick no matter what th...Adoption will be very very quick no matter what they charge, at least in the gaming industry. Their graphics detail speaks for itself, it's a must have the day the first game is released. <br /><br />For the console and mobile gaming industry, this will suddenly put all these platforms on equal footing graphically.<br /><br />The most easy to adopt and most profitable price model to charge, would be a percentage of profits made by any game that uses their tech. And considering the gaming industry is bigger than the movie industry, Bruce Dell is about to join the richest people in the world list.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-30517929406842915832012-09-20T07:44:11.254-05:002012-09-20T07:44:11.254-05:00Surprise! You neither read their PDF on the produc...Surprise! You neither read their PDF on the product nor have the balls to call them for an actual hands on demo as stated on the prior mentioned PDF.<br /><br />That would be too easy and the quickest way to put your ignorant bitching to rest, now wouldn't it?Will Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14369186130470176679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-47230225059948680252012-09-20T07:27:24.672-05:002012-09-20T07:27:24.672-05:00Surprise there is no info about there geoverse pro...Surprise there is no info about there geoverse product yet Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546767310299892386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-57041399382192042612012-09-06T14:09:29.865-05:002012-09-06T14:09:29.865-05:00Well, I did expect them to come up with something ...Well, I did expect them to come up with something far more tangible than just a quick demo before the end of this year - as stated above. so the first stage is just commercializing the UD engine for the spatial visualization industry. <br /><br />On its own, the UD Engine already brings the file sizes down to 5-20% of the original size. But then taking that further, the 3D Search function (like I mentioned in the article here) allows LIDAR data to be visualized in real time, where before that simply wasn't possible.<br /><br />At this point, I believe the GeoVerse product is a step toward what they were doing before as a possible game dev kit, but that is likely to surface around 2013 (maybe first quarter?).<br /><br />All in all, for anyone who has been running around saying this is impossible - well, they are now free to call Euclideon and request a demo. Will Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14369186130470176679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-67032625676843498822012-09-06T11:32:30.575-05:002012-09-06T11:32:30.575-05:00Any comments about the morphing of Euclideon web p...Any comments about the morphing of Euclideon web page into Euclideon:Geoverse? Sure it looks less and less as a hoax (I never believed is one), but still no real clue about the math behind. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-32368541441845762312012-07-27T15:35:46.847-05:002012-07-27T15:35:46.847-05:00Taking a read of the http://imagination-engines.co...Taking a read of the http://imagination-engines.com website and it looks really intriguing. Of most interest to me is the Robotic Simulation Environments section - though likely for reasons which aren't inherently obvious.<br /><br />Yes, IEI and Euclideon paired together would be really interesting... thank you for the heads up!Will Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14369186130470176679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-42116027310743784882012-07-27T15:02:35.628-05:002012-07-27T15:02:35.628-05:00The mainstream typically puts the cart before the ...The mainstream typically puts the cart before the horse and as long as the majority keeps looking at the wrong ends, while solutions are being developed behind the scenes, the pace of progress will be hindered.<br /><br />Now, imagine if we combine the Euclideon engine with efficient, adaptive, autonomous, in short 'real' artificial intelligence. That would mean intelligent character behaviors, on-the-fly generation of new scenarios or environments, perhaps even more remarkable things. It could employ the liberated GPU. I know, that's impossible right? We would need extreme supercomputers to pull that off? Well, no - only if we stick with current mainstream methodologies and understandings of what "intelligence" is. It's truly a paradigm-shift issue. The human brain does not run on algorithms but on neurons, so all we need to do is to replicate neural networks and make plenty of them interconnected and "alive".<br /><br />Stephen Thaler and his company Imagination Engines did just that. He started out pretty much the same way Bruce did, as a renegade to the established industry. Consequently he is not taken seriously by leading 'experts' and has a hard time convincing anyone (except the government and certain corporations that utilized this technology for years) that his systems can in fact accomplish what they do without any exorbitant supercomputer farms.<br /><br />Bruce and Steve should work together to bring us straight into the future. If only more people would be visionary enough to direct their investments and energy away from the encrusted ways of doing things towards the more groundbreaking ones.Rarehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18353943308476349245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-6494428939368631932012-07-12T07:33:38.434-05:002012-07-12T07:33:38.434-05:00I try my best sometimes. I mean... I'm open fo...I try my best sometimes. I mean... I'm open for differential consideration, but not when the foundation is pulling stuff out of one's ass.Will Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14369186130470176679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-57659106658853563652012-07-12T07:29:45.098-05:002012-07-12T07:29:45.098-05:00I'm on the fence about that - I mean, Crytek c...I'm on the fence about that - I mean, Crytek charges $750,000 for a commercial license of their engine. I think it could go either way. As for the polygon part - Euclideon does atomistic cloud models, but that could be just about anything. Just because it can do photorealism doesn't mean it can't do less than that if you import the models. Just some food for thought.Will Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14369186130470176679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-82589349038989287462012-07-04T23:39:41.331-05:002012-07-04T23:39:41.331-05:00dude, you destroyed that guy's argument and i ...dude, you destroyed that guy's argument and i love you for it :)Patrick's RTF Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16165998935049778031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-7278748757800443582012-07-04T16:49:54.995-05:002012-07-04T16:49:54.995-05:00Great article. About last paragraph though, I don&...Great article. About last paragraph though, I don't think this will be apocalypse for polygons, especially for games that are supposed to look "oldschool" (SuperOfficeStress and 0x10c to name few) where polygons are enough. Also cost of technology may be problem. If they release sdk for free, or go after open source business model and charge for support instead, technology will be adapted very quick. But if they'd demand $3000 (random big number) for license, that will limit technology adaptation.Dariusz G. Jagielskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05574239097319508425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-64493872857293026072012-07-03T22:34:38.817-05:002012-07-03T22:34:38.817-05:00Also, I think those points were made in more detai...Also, I think those points were made in more detail with the Quantum Rush and Quantum Rush: DuexWill Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14369186130470176679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-71997008171930095422012-07-03T22:33:32.321-05:002012-07-03T22:33:32.321-05:00Actually I did mention the idea that they are like...Actually I did mention the idea that they are likely using a custom file format in the Procedural Methodologies section of the post:<br /><br />"Therein is the secret for Euclideon. The typical 3D Engine is the equivalent of having to travel from the beginning to the end of the Internet to find what it needs, whereas Euclideon is the equivalent of skipping 90% of it and bringing the results in milliseconds. This, in turn, makes Euclideon a highly optimized graphics engine, and the indexing of the files happens when you’re converting the high resolution polygon models into the Euclideon point-cloud data format (the equivalent of Google crawling the Internet)"<br /><br />2. Algorithmic Interpolation was my thought on the data compaction methods.<br /><br />But yeah, I follow what you're saying. Polygon methodologies are the ones having trouble wrapping their heads around this stuff because it seems to just break everything they've known.Will Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14369186130470176679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-2146591947596868242012-07-03T20:25:01.241-05:002012-07-03T20:25:01.241-05:00Will, great article. The Unknown poster you conve...Will, great article. The Unknown poster you conversed with early, from reading his responses I actually know who that guy is. His name is Tomas Eriksson from the Facebook Page and hombacom on Youtube. <br /><br />The reason I know this, is because I've tried to explain these ideas to him multiple times, but he insists on repeating those same arguments without any numeric values to back up his claims. Also, he told me he's been a programmer for 15 years, no seriously, he did.<br /><br />Nonetheless, the reason I'm posting this is to bring a few things to your attention (not including who the Unknown was).<br /><br />1. What you, nor really anyone else for that matter has ever spoken about, is the fact that Euclideon may very well have created their own format. Like Autodesk with .FBX or Adobe with .PSD, the fact remains they could have built their own format.<br /><br />I actually thought of this because of Red Cameras. You may not be aware of who Red Digital Cinema is, so allow me to explain. Red is the single most advanced digital camera company in the world, bar none. They did what no other large company ever accomplished.<br /><br />But they did this a few ways. They not only built the most sophisticated camera, they also built their own format. Red uses what they call, .R3D as their format. The beauty of a Red Camera is that it shoots in RAW Format. RAW Files allow for the camera sensor to hold color information inside the file, with no color applied until it is later processed through another Red technology called RedGamma.<br /><br />This color information is held (along with a few other things) inside what is called Metadata. The idea of only retaining color information is EXTREMELY PLAUSIBLE for Point Cloud. If Euclideon was able to replicate a similar approach, only 2.0376M pixels (1080p) would have to be processed, while all other color information stays dormant until used.<br /><br />This would allow for not only amazing data compaction, but the ability to stream in color processing and not entire datasets. Also, by them creating a specific format, they could create it in such a way that 3rd Parties could implement it in standard 3D Packages down the road.<br /><br />2. The other aspect I would like to bring up is File Size. Everything I'm about to say is completely speculative and could very well be deemed incorrect on MANY LEVELS.<br /><br />Anyways, many people (including the Unknown) have stated numerous times, is that incredibly detailed objects would take up large amounts of storage. This may not actually be the case.<br /><br />If you went into a 3D Program and loaded up the default sphere and made it 100 Polygons, then loaded up another window with the default sphere and this time, made it 1 Million Polygons. In my estimation, when converted to Euclideon's Format, both should be virtually identical in file size.<br /><br />The reason I say this, is because both are converted equally. The conversion rate is 64 atoms per Cubic MM. Since both spheres are the same size, they are essentially made up of exactly the same amount of Cubic MM's. It's like, if you took both spheres and filled them with water. Both spheres use the same amount of water, but instead of water, think of it like atoms.<br /><br />Again, that may be very incorrect, but from a mathematical standpoint, a measurement has no alternative but to break down accordingly. I believe the deciding factor in File Size will be what color attributes are applied. Whether they are 8 bit, 10 bit or 12 bit color might be what boosts file size. Other than that, in my opinion, the detail in the asset has no bearing on File Size.<br /><br />**Also, one more thing. You are absolutely correct in saying that people who only worked in Polygon Fields are struggling with this. The beauty of Euclideon is that it shows how one-dimensional the world has really become. It's almost like everything that's been created can only be improved upon, nothing can be invented anymore. It's like we hit the pinnacle years ago, and all we have to do is polish it up more.**LawrenceGHardinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08648385338154174531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21946045.post-61769562054179591812012-06-01T13:05:20.702-05:002012-06-01T13:05:20.702-05:00The video looks like a test for data compaction an...The video looks like a test for data compaction and visual quality. ~76% Realism @ 32FPS. I would have to disagree about showing thousands of copies of the scene side by side, because then people would fall back to the argument of having to repeat everything because of memory limitations.<br /><br />As for me, this video is pretty impressive because it gives me a deeper understanding of what point Euclideon is at in their work. If you consider that they likely had to write this whole system (including the graphics pipeline) from scratch starting with Assembler, any programmer worth their salt would immediately understand the herculean task in front of Euclideon, as well as give Bruce Dell his props for getting this far instead of acting like a bunch of jealous haters.<br /><br />We should be in the cheering section for Euclideon and not being pessimists. We're our own worst enemies when it comes to innovation and advancement - always holding ourselves and others back.Will Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14369186130470176679noreply@blogger.com